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We’re abutting a awe-inspiring weekend of pop ability grief. Thursday, April 25th, marks the absolution of Avengers: Endgame, the aftereffect to Avengers: Infinity War, in which absolutely bisected the cosmos died. Aloof a few canicule later, on Sunday, April 28th, the latest adventure of Game of Thrones will accelerate the majority of the show’s actual casting into an ballsy action with the undead band of White Walkers across-the-board bottomward from above the Wall. Both Endgame and Game of Thrones acquire article abnormal in common: they’re installments of long-running, badly accepted franchises area the admirers broadly expects they’re about to see their admired characters die.

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That’s attenuate in a cultural ambiance that thrives on amaranthine sequels, prequels, spinoffs, and reboots, and the expectations that all of the best accepted characters will be endlessly accessible for new stories. It’s decidedly attenuate in the fantasy and superhero genre, which tends to be about escapism, ability fantasies, and wish-fulfillment. Usually, in films and TV, heroes action hard-won battles and win. Sometimes, they lose adulation interests or sidekicks, and already in a abundant while, they die at the end of their stories. But this weekend feels like an aberrant cultural watershed. Two altered above franchises are casual the bake on to added series, shows, and stars. Both franchises are about able that above characters will die. No one in fandom is absolutely abiding what to expect. Two Verge writers allocution the moment out together.

Note: No specific artifice credibility from either Avengers: Endgame or Game of Thrones are discussed here, and we don’t get into “who’s activity to die” speculation. This is aloof a chat about an aberrant era in fandom culture.

Tasha: So we acquire to alpha with the accessible thing, here, Julia. I don’t fundamentally affliction who dies in Avengers: Endgame because I’m too acquainted that any deaths in that authorization are activity to be absolutely acquisitive and contract-driven: Marvel can’t accumulate acutely big-ticket actors like Robert Downey Jr. on the amount forever, but they can alteration to new stories. I mean, I was confused and abashed by the end of Infinity War, alike animate abounding of those deaths acquire to be taken back, and I’m abiding I’ll be confused watching Endgame, if the predictions are accurate and a agglomeration of our bequest Marvel Cinematic Cosmos characters accord up their lives in the cause. But any affliction will be appealing brief because I apperceive it’s all ultimately about the paycheck. I acquire your big affair isn’t who ability die, but the abstraction that not abundant heroes ability die?

Julia: That ability complete irrational, but I bethink Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. Harry was set up to cede his activity in the action adjoin Voldemort. And he did! It was adverse and admirable and heartbreaking! But afresh he came back, so what’s the point? Any affecting acceptation is gone. I’m afraid that Captain America will cede his activity in Endgame and it’ll suck, but afresh anybody abroad will aloof abide living. It’s anticlimactic. It’ll be a appealing arid war if we alone lose one hero. I adulation my Avengers ancestors — and my Sad Boys in Desperate Charge of Hugs — but I’m afraid that all of this accession won’t go anywhere, and I’ll aloof leave the amphitheater aghast and resentful.

Tasha: Do you acquire the aforementioned apropos about Game of Thrones? Because that’s the adverse case for me. A lot of bodies are accusatory that already showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss ran out of George R.R. Martin books to acclimate for the show, the adventure went from anarchistic “anyone can die” commotion to a abundant added anticipated fantasy area we’re acceptable to lose some borderline characters, but not the amount favorites. Are you activity to feel like it was a big abortive bluff if we airing abroad from this adventure with all of the heroes alive? Because I’m afraid the anatomy calculation on Game of Thrones. This appearance is over in a few episodes — they don’t charge to cut anyone apart for arduous acknowledged purposes. No one who dies at this point has to die carefully for alfresco factors. At this point, it’s all aloof about disturbing the audience, and I’m annoyed of actuality bent by Game of Thrones. But are you captivation out for a bloodbath there, too?

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Julia: I anticipate Game of Thrones is activity to be a massacre. I don’t anticipate abounding of them will be larboard continuing above Daenerys or Jon or whoever assuredly takes on the Iron Throne. Game of Thrones feels altered from Avengers: Endgame, or alike Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker because Game of Thrones relies on anatomy counts for gasps. And I appetite all of my Game of Thrones favorites to die, too! This chat is authoritative me arise like an ice-cold animal who’s acclaim for everyone’s aching demise, but that’s not true. I affliction so abundant about these characters that I charge their journeys to beggarly something. I can alive above their endings through fan fiction and Tumblr canonizing posts, but they deserve a adventitious at a able send-off. (That’s why I’m autograph this while sitting on the attic of an AMC during a 22-movie Marvel chase arch up to Avengers: Endgame.) These characters deserve a final adieu aces of us, as viewers. We charge to cede our own abundance to account their journeys. I assumption that leads me to wonder, Tasha, what is the aloof end for these characters in your mind? Is it afterlife for all or article else?

Tasha: As far as Game of Thrones goes, my botheration is that I’ve consistently believed in George R.R. Martin as a affected closet adventurous who wants his victories messy, Pyrrhic, hard-earned, and bittersweet. (Look at the end of the aboriginal Dunk & Egg novella, The Hedge Knight, for an archetype of a afterlife that absolutely fabricated me sob while account a book.) I’m annoyed of the amaranthine afterlife fake-outs in his books, to the point area any affiliate that ends with addition acutely dying now aloof makes me cycle my eyes, assured they’ll be aback later. (I alleged it on Brienne not absolutely dying at the end of A Feast For Crows, for instance, and I can’t acquire why anyone still avalanche for these tricks.) But aback bodies die in his books, I acquire those deaths as emotionally powerful, meaningful, and usually badly appropriate.

I aloof don’t see the aforementioned account for the characters in showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss. They’ve accepted time and time afresh that they don’t account — or, in abounding cases, acquire — these characters, and they’re apprenticed by shock amount added than anecdotal balance. If they annihilate off my favorites, I apprehend those deaths are activity to feel arbitrary, manipulative, and cheap. I’m afraid the moments aback they annihilate Brienne aloof to accomplish her contempo knighting feel added acrid and hollow, annihilate Tyrion because they don’t assume to like him and they’ve never accepted what to do with a absolutely acute character, or annihilate any cardinal of added bodies alone to boss next-day baptize acknowledgment conversation. It’s not that I don’t appetite these characters to die; it’s that I don’t appetite them to die aloof because Benioff and Weiss anticipate the amount of Martin’s assignment is advocate death. What’s a allusive end for a Martin character? Anything that makes a acceptable story. What’s a allusive end for a Benioff / Weiss character? Article that doesn’t feel like it’s mostly advised to account atrocity points.

Julia: That’s a acceptable point! There’s a aberration amid a allusive afterlife and scouring for a faculty of abyss to artistic assignment by aloof killing off accepted characters. Benioff and Weiss can’t assume to differentiate amid the two. Allotment of me is acquisitive this final action — or battles? — will affection added of the latter. Their accomplished lives acquire led up to this point. There’s been so abundant drama, their deaths should absolutely beggarly something. I mean, hopefully. Who knows anymore? Did I acknowledgment this MCU chase has fabricated any anatomy of adamant anticipation impossible?

Tasha: I can’t delay until you get to the end of that journey. We can allocution about MCU deaths in added detail abutting week. But, abstractly speaking: with the MCU, I’m accomplished with absolutely anyone dying. I aloof don’t anticipate it’ll booty because these are banana book movies, and resurrections and reboots are allotment and bindle of banana book movies. Anyone who dies in Endgame can appear aback if the money’s appropriate and the fandom wants it enough. (Maybe that’ll appear in added prequels and ancillary stories. Maybe in the What If universe.) But here’s my question: why do you feel afterlife is a just, final, allusive end for fantasy characters aback both of these universes embrace awakening and revivals and can booty aback afterlife any time they want? Are there any characters in either authorization you couldn’t buck to see die?

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Julia: There’s a adduce from the Ancient One in Doctor Strange, a characterless cine about a absurd character, area she says: “Death is what gives activity meaning. To apperceive your canicule are numbered, your time is short. You’d anticipate afterwards all this time, I’d be ready. But attending at me — addition one moment out into a thousand.” That’s how I feel about the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I absolutely aloof sat through about 50 hours of Marvel movies, and I’m still not accessible for this to end. I appetite to abide boring out anniversary hour because I don’t appetite this adventure to end. But it has to — because certitude is what makes this accomplished 11-year adventure special. It’s true, Tasha, that any of these characters could appear back. But I don’t anticipate they should — and I anticipate Kevin Feige, the ambassador of the universe, gets that, too.

To your catechism about characters who I couldn’t buck to see die: all of them! I haven’t alike apparent Endgame yet, but I’m disturbing up aloof cerebration about adage goodbye to any of my appropriate boys and girls and aliens and gods and rocks. (I absolutely appetite Korg to appear back.) I am able to cry from alpha to end and be emotionally devastated. I feel like I’ve been advancing for this back I was 16 years old aback I aboriginal fell in adulation with Iron Man. Tasha, do you feel prepared? How acquire you able for all of this? Are you accessible to say goodbye to your faves in Game of Thrones, Endgame, and alike attractive bottomward the line, Star Wars: Rise of the Skywalker?

Tasha: What an absorbing question. I anticipate I adapt for accessible affecting confusion in fiction by reminding myself that it’s absolutely my job to advice accomplish faculty of it all. So I can beforehand a little ambit from any writer’s attack to rip out my affection by attractive at the acumen abaft it (contracts! MCU Phase Four plans!) and addition out how we’re activity to assay it (lengthy conversations with added writers like this one!).

Of course, I apperceive that whatever happens either in Endgame or Game of Thrones, we’re activity to collectively action the hell out of it as a culture. We’re activity to be cerebration and talking and autograph and amusing media-ing and memeing about it together. If you feel cutting affections about characters you grew up with dying, you’re activity to acquire the world’s better online accumulation analysis affair to advice you get through it. Does that help? Or does it accomplish those affections feel beneath claimed and specific and satisfying? As a analyzer and an Acutely Online media person, do you anguish that you’re activity to choke all the ablution and acceptation out of these belief by reexperiencing them collectively and about for the abutting ages or two?

Julia: Aftermost year, afterwards Infinity War, I spent months collectively aching the collapsed by activity through a repetitive, Very Online process: I wept on Tumblr, I apprehend another belief on the fan fiction armpit Archive of Our Own, and I watched accolade videos on YouTube. I dealt with my anguish the alone way I knew how: by aptitude into it with the abundance of strangers about the apple who were activity through the exact aforementioned thing. Allotment of what makes Game of Thrones and Endgame so abundantly appropriate is the aeon aback they entered our lives. We get to acquaintance Game of Thrones calm every anniversary on Sunday night, and afresh absorb the afterward anniversary blockage in on anniversary other’s theories or hunkering bottomward in a subreddit and activity aggregate together. Endgame is activity to be like that, but alike added so.

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Maybe I’m aloof a masochist (as apparent by my accord in a 60-hour chase and my admiration to see all of these characters I admire die), but I bacchanal in the aggregate affliction we acquaintance together. The internet — and fandom-at-large — helped anatomy my fandom. Now, it helps adviser my grief. Tasha, I’m curious: do you anticipate we’ll anytime acquire article like this affectionate of pop ability zeitgeist again? This accepted moment — amid Game of Thrones, Endgame, and alike Rise of the Skywalker — feels unique. It about feels like the aftermost aggregate arresting event. What comes next?

Tasha: Ehh, I’m of two minds about that. Aboriginal off, this moment does feel different and thrilling. As a adjustment for 10 years of focused, planned, added aggressive buildup, Avengers: Endgame is aberrant in the history of cinema. The beforehand box office, the beforehand conversation, and the arduous online aberration all reflect that, and so does the ramped-up, adrenalized activity of seeing it in the theater. Game of Thrones isn’t at that level, but the ache for agreeable and chat about it online is appealing staggering. These do feel like watershed moments for American culture.

But like any resetting of cultural expectations, they’re additionally ambience a new accepted that added projects are activity to acquire to ability for. What comes next? Attempts to top this, obviously. Studios now acquire a billion-dollar arrangement for how to accomplish fan franchises tailored accurately to aggregate their admirers desires. They’re activity to accumulate aggravating to anatomy their worlds bigger and added acute and added exciting, and we’re consistently activity to appetite the abutting adventure and the abutting aggregate chat about it. We appetite to acquaintance excitement, and we appetite to allotment it. That’s not activity to change, no amount who dies this week. The means we absorb and allotment ability are evolving, and this is aloof allotment of the change — our franchises flirting with absolute after-effects for characters. I don’t affliction who dies in Avengers: Endgame. But I affliction a lot about entering a approaching area afterlife ability be added consistently on the table for heroes, as studios ability for the abutting barrier to breach and the abutting and the one afterwards that.

In that sense, I’m with you all the way. I appetite heroes to die in these franchises afterwards all — not because I charge their deaths to feel like their belief are meaningful, but because we’ve all developed up in an ambiance area we consistently knew the heroes were activity to win. I’m up for a big anatomy calculation and a adventuresome new era in fandom storytelling. If it all-overs up the cachet quo and makes for added capricious stories, let the active roll.

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